Sunday, January 22, 2012
Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Monday, October 17, 2011
Conversation with a Christian
All names and pics have been removed save mine. A= Christian J= Atheist friend o mine.
Thursday, June 30, 2011
God is unjust.
The stoning of unruly children to death, nor the stoning of rape victims, nor forcing rape victims to marry their rapist, nor taking women into slavery or raping them after sacking a city, as commanded by God, are just actions. So God is unjust is he not?
Deuteronomy 22:22-27 (New International Version, ©2011)
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (New International Version, ©2011)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (New International Version, ©2011)
10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (New International Version, ©2011)
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Zechariah 14:1-2 (New International Version, ©2011)
1 A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
How can one even say that this God is a just deity? By these passages alone, one would come to the rational conclusion that this God is not a very just moral God and should not be followed. And if by some chance you are a Christain and disagree with the bible then why even bother calling yourself a Christain?
Matthew: 5:17-18 (New International Version, ©2011)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 (New International Version, ©2011)
15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
As stated right here ALL scripture is God-breathed! So if you disagree with the relgions sacred text then you are disagreeing with God. Are you not?
You say he gave you free will, oppression of women convo.
All names have been removed:
You say he gave you free will, but if he all ready has a plan for you, then do you really have free will?
Plan: A plan is typically any diagram or list of steps with timing and resources, used to achieve an objective.
Destiny: Destiny refers to a predetermined course of events.
Free will: The ability to make a choice without coercion.
Christian1:
I believe we have free will, but because he is not limited by the dimension of time like we are, he knows what choices we are going to make.
Me:
Then free will cannot happen, you cannot go outside his predetermined plan.
Christian1:
Well - I didn't say that our choices were determined by him, just the he knows what we're going to choose before we do. If you change your mind on something at the last minute - its not a surprise to him because he's not limited to observing you in time.
Me:
God has a plan for you if you serve him, you must submit to him and let him guide you through his plan. Become a servant tot he lord(or as some preachers like to put it: become a slave to the lord).
This is not free will. Some preachers even add: You think you have free will, but you do not, for when you submit to the lord you are following his will.
Christian2:
Our will eventually becomes his will, our ways become his ways..submission is an act of love.. and it is freeing. It is our choice, but Lord please deliver us from doing what we can do..
Me:
Submission is not an act of love. I would never allow a woman to submit to me. For I am not her authority, she is her own authority. To submit is to yield oneself to anothers authority.
Christian2:
1 Cor 14:34....titus 2:5
Me:
1 Cor 14:34: So you agree that women must be silent and have no say in the Church?
So do you agree with 1 Timothy 2:11-12? Let a women learn in quietness with all subjection. But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
This is oppression of women.
Titus 2:1-5 But speak thou the things which befit the sound doctrine: that aged men be temperate, grave, sober-minded, sound in faith, in love, in patience: that aged women likewise be reverent in demeanor, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good; that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their childrend, to be sober-minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands, that the word of God not be blasphemed.
They are only allowed to teach young women to be oppressed as well.
Christian2:
No, I don't believe women have to be submissive and quiet at all times...there is a time and place for everything but I do believe that men and women have roles..men are to be the spiritual leaders and women want and need to be led.. in order to do that, men have to be submissive to God and then to God and then their husbands..its all about being humble and tearing down ugly walls of pride.
Me:
Then if you don't agree with the bible text that women must be submissive all the time as these verses state, then why follow such a thing? These verses are not about humbleness or pride these verses clearly state that women must remain submissive at all times save for to teach younger women to be submissive.
Christian2:
I do agree with the bible...always..there is a balance(with wisdom and discernment)..I don't think I am to be mute and 100% passive but I do believe I am to be submissive to God. There are women pastors such as Joyce Meyer that I like and don't see anything wrong with it..as long as she is spreading the gospel obeying God..she also struggled with being submissive to her husband at first...God loves us meets us where we are..It's not so much about these commands as much as it is about our relationship with him. I see him as a gentleman not a dictator. Perspective.
Me:
Then Joyce Meyer is going against Gods Laws, his doctrines. All scripture is God breathed and to be used to help the servant of God become righteous, if you do not follow Gods doctrines then you are not being righteous.
Christian2:
Im sorry I didn't mean to get into a doctrinal debate.
And with that she was gone. An atheist friend posted this a day later:
Picking and choosing when and where gods rules apply is blasphemous. Why not just ignore that whole slave doctrine all together? Are you not intellectually sound enough to make decision based on rational and comprehension of our reality? You just displayed that you are! Obviously you can see when the bible is clearly full of shit, and ignore it every time you say anything without expressed permission. So why submit to any of it? You are ethically sound enough to make your own choices, aren't you? But what guides those choices must be thought to the outcome of the decision on all that we must someday leave behind, not the ridiculous notion that you or I have any clue what will become of our molecules as their energy weakens and expires. Of course there are consequences to our actions, but they are not at all individual consequences. Humanity has no need for submission, only the need for honest reflection. Shed the archaic slave ideology, and evolve with the rest on honest society...
You say he gave you free will, but if he all ready has a plan for you, then do you really have free will?
Plan: A plan is typically any diagram or list of steps with timing and resources, used to achieve an objective.
Destiny: Destiny refers to a predetermined course of events.
Free will: The ability to make a choice without coercion.
Christian1:
I believe we have free will, but because he is not limited by the dimension of time like we are, he knows what choices we are going to make.
Me:
Then free will cannot happen, you cannot go outside his predetermined plan.
Christian1:
Well - I didn't say that our choices were determined by him, just the he knows what we're going to choose before we do. If you change your mind on something at the last minute - its not a surprise to him because he's not limited to observing you in time.
Me:
God has a plan for you if you serve him, you must submit to him and let him guide you through his plan. Become a servant tot he lord(or as some preachers like to put it: become a slave to the lord).
This is not free will. Some preachers even add: You think you have free will, but you do not, for when you submit to the lord you are following his will.
Christian2:
Our will eventually becomes his will, our ways become his ways..submission is an act of love.. and it is freeing. It is our choice, but Lord please deliver us from doing what we can do..
Me:
Submission is not an act of love. I would never allow a woman to submit to me. For I am not her authority, she is her own authority. To submit is to yield oneself to anothers authority.
Christian2:
1 Cor 14:34....titus 2:5
Me:
1 Cor 14:34: So you agree that women must be silent and have no say in the Church?
So do you agree with 1 Timothy 2:11-12? Let a women learn in quietness with all subjection. But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
This is oppression of women.
Titus 2:1-5 But speak thou the things which befit the sound doctrine: that aged men be temperate, grave, sober-minded, sound in faith, in love, in patience: that aged women likewise be reverent in demeanor, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good; that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their childrend, to be sober-minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands, that the word of God not be blasphemed.
They are only allowed to teach young women to be oppressed as well.
Christian2:
No, I don't believe women have to be submissive and quiet at all times...there is a time and place for everything but I do believe that men and women have roles..men are to be the spiritual leaders and women want and need to be led.. in order to do that, men have to be submissive to God and then to God and then their husbands..its all about being humble and tearing down ugly walls of pride.
Me:
Then if you don't agree with the bible text that women must be submissive all the time as these verses state, then why follow such a thing? These verses are not about humbleness or pride these verses clearly state that women must remain submissive at all times save for to teach younger women to be submissive.
Christian2:
I do agree with the bible...always..there is a balance(with wisdom and discernment)..I don't think I am to be mute and 100% passive but I do believe I am to be submissive to God. There are women pastors such as Joyce Meyer that I like and don't see anything wrong with it..as long as she is spreading the gospel obeying God..she also struggled with being submissive to her husband at first...God loves us meets us where we are..It's not so much about these commands as much as it is about our relationship with him. I see him as a gentleman not a dictator. Perspective.
Me:
Then Joyce Meyer is going against Gods Laws, his doctrines. All scripture is God breathed and to be used to help the servant of God become righteous, if you do not follow Gods doctrines then you are not being righteous.
Christian2:
Im sorry I didn't mean to get into a doctrinal debate.
And with that she was gone. An atheist friend posted this a day later:
Picking and choosing when and where gods rules apply is blasphemous. Why not just ignore that whole slave doctrine all together? Are you not intellectually sound enough to make decision based on rational and comprehension of our reality? You just displayed that you are! Obviously you can see when the bible is clearly full of shit, and ignore it every time you say anything without expressed permission. So why submit to any of it? You are ethically sound enough to make your own choices, aren't you? But what guides those choices must be thought to the outcome of the decision on all that we must someday leave behind, not the ridiculous notion that you or I have any clue what will become of our molecules as their energy weakens and expires. Of course there are consequences to our actions, but they are not at all individual consequences. Humanity has no need for submission, only the need for honest reflection. Shed the archaic slave ideology, and evolve with the rest on honest society...
A Facebook conversation with a Christian:
Christians name has been removed.
- Did you even read what you posted about more Bible contradictions, or do you just look for things that say "Bible Contradictions" or "We can prove Christianity is wrong"? However, I am a firm believer that since you don't fear the Lord as the Bible says...you can't gain wisdom and you also can't interpret what the Bible says. Keep working on your missionary work of belief in non-belief Mike. Please tell me you are smarter than the articles you post and read. Go through those so called contradictions and tell me those aren't construed, or that they aren't just reaching for straws. Check out your boy Hitchins...looks like someone took away his voice. Let me guess...through evolution our bodies have learned to convert their cells to attack the body. Yup...makes sense to me too.
The more I read of these Mike, the more I think that you just post random stuff against Christianity because you want to sound intelligent in your arguments against the Faith by using other's ideas. You may want to consider who and what you are reading before posting. I just read through the majority of these, and I started to question one, did you really read it, and two, maybe your reading comprehension is a step behind. If you would like, I can break some of them down for you with the wisdom that the Lord has blessed me with. Maybe then they will make more sense. I recommend that you start meeting with someone regularly if this is how your brain interprets the Bible. Maybe then you will be able to see and hear through their wisdom. Then you will realize that your arguments are weak and that you actually were correct at one point in your walk with the Lord. Oh, and I recommend you study with a Christian that is...no one but a Christian can gain true interpretation and understanding of the Bible...go ahead and argue it. You already supplied me with what you put your stock into.
Me:- You are the one taking the bible out of context, not me . Disease took away Hitches voice not some fictional deity, a disease called cancer. So what about all the other cancer patients that are religious and who pray to God to live, yet they die? Bible states all prayers will be answered no matter what they prayed for. How about all the starving children, are their prayers answered?
John 15:7
"But if you stay joined to me and my words remain in you, you may ask any request you like, and it will be granted." As stated right here ANY request you like will be granted. Jesus says this.
Go ahead take that passage out of context to fit your needs.
Christian:- Awww....good try mike. I have no reason to post on your wall. I wasted more than enough time on you guys. I'd rather just enjoy the joy in my heart that the Lord put there. Once again, scripture isn't your strong point and you're in this world alone by your own choice. Silly mike...just silly. Hey, did ya ever figure out where those non-tangible emotions came from? I'll keep praying for you guys. God Bless.
Me:- Then why message me if you wasted your time or what the fuck ever. Again I did not take that passage out of context. You just ignored my questions, so why doesn't God answer everyones prayers? His son, which is really him, states that you ask and you shall receive no matter what. Im not in this world all alone, lmfao I love this one, I have my friends, family and my cat. I've read the bible 3 times, on the 4th working on a book. I do not have a degree in theology, but I can point you to an atheist who does. Apparently you have something to hide because you wont post out in the open. And if someone else comments besides me all you have to do is ignore them, not answer them but only me. So you can't use that as an excuse. You can lighten your prayer load by not praying for me, Yahweh won't answer them for you because he isn't real.
Christian:- Guess I shouldn't say your answer is ignorant,...you just haven't experiences how the Lord works. The Lord answers every prayer. Random example: let's say I ask God to do something, but He knows that whatever I just prayed for actually will hurt me in some way shape or form...then He answers your prayer through not providing that object for you. Of I pray to God for a Ferrari full of 100 dollar bills...do you think he is going to give that to me? No. That is just silly. I don't k ow why you argue the scripture when you k ow the answers. Instead you would rather spin things to fit your new argument. I really don't understand the purpose of you reading the Bible if you know it's not true. That is just silly. Let me guess, I do it so I can prove Christians wrong. One, you aren't gonna shake this root. Two, trying to remove someone's sense of hope is wicked. You say you are just trying to open their eyes and teach them. Wrong. You want opera to support your views so you don't look like such an ass. Dude, I don't like what you do. I don't like tour beliefs. I think you do wicked things. I want nothing to do with you as a human, but I will continue to pray whether you like it or not...even if you don't care. Oh yeah, and where do emotions come from again? Why do you grieve the natural processes of science like death. It's natural and par of your evolving world. Oh, and another ? Where are the apes that are in transition from being an ape to becoming a man? I guess that fade just happens over night. Mike you are lost. Fight and argue all you want. You sound like an absolute fool who just goes after something because they have been rejected by society moat of their life. Give it up...Jesus is the way and the light. We both know it. You are just scared to step up to the plate. Say what you want about it. Your still just a cowardly weakling inside.
Me:- "It's natural and par of your evolving world. Oh, and another ? Where are the apes that are in transition from being an ape to becoming a man? I guess that fade just happens over night."
Transitional fossils. Go learn up on evolution. We won't see all the transitions of any animal alive, because that transition only survived long enough to pass along it traits and nothing more.
"Oh yeah, and where do emotions come from again? "
Through the evolution of our brain, we have all ready discussed this, how about putting down your bible and go actually do some research. And then come talk to me after that.
"You want opera to support your views so you don't look like such an ass. Dude, I don't like what you do. I don't like tour beliefs. I think you do wicked things. I want nothing to do with you as a human, but I will continue to pray whether you like it or not...even if you don't care."
Your the one looking like a self righteous douche bag not me. Your calling me evil even though you know damn well know I don't do evil things, do you see me raping men and women, how about killing babies, slaughtering everything, stealing, lying, yeah I am so fucking evil it is ridiculous, I guess your right, I need to repent for absolutely fucking nothing.
" You sound like an absolute fool who just goes after something because they have been rejected by society most of their life. "
Rejected by society? No guess what your wrong, I came to the conclusion of no god(s) through rational thought not because of some stupid society. It seems to me you are the one conforming, I know I sure as fuck ain't.
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Now if you want to continue with this bullshit, stick the subject that you claim to fucking know, the bible. Yahweh is good.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:26
Your bible even tells you to hate.
Christian:- Once again a misinterpretation. This doesn't literally mean that you hate them as you would think it says. It means that the Father comes first and that you have to have so much love for Him that you are willing to leave all others to follow Him. Come on Mike...you once knew this stuff...now you're just trying to change it to fit your case.I too used to struggle with that statement FYI. I actually got a great chance to share with one of the people I am teaching that very scripture the other day. Without me stating what I just said...she totally got the answer. Therefore, that isn't "proof" but it shows that wisdom allows believers to interpret the Bible in the same way where non-believers cannot.Alright...have about 3.2 seconds to type on break. One, I notice a heavy change in your tone. Two, I'm strictly following the Word of God. I have not condemned you to hell. I have simply stated fact. Yeah, i can see where I've started judging I guess...my apologies, but then again you don't believe the Bible...so what's it matter in your mind? We are just freak anomalies of science that don't exist. Read the book of Jude. If you can't see what you are doing within this book...we probably don't need to converse anymore on the fact that one, I've done what work I can with you and two, wasting anymore time sharing with you takes away from my personal time with God. Yeah, let me guess...I need to always share God's work and show love for others. Well, id rather spend time with Him than some arrogant selfish ignorant person like you. I have tried that with you and I could have shared with several folks in the time and effort that I spent with you. Good luck.
Me:There you go again, I am far from arrogant, selfish and ignorant. I'm not the one making an outrageous supernatural claim with any supporting empirical evidence to support it. Maybe you need to take a look at your bible again, stop picking and choosing what you want to hear.
By interpreting you are adding to the words. You are changing the definition of hate in the Luke 14:16 passage to fit your needs.
Deuteronomy 12:32
See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Proverbs 30:5-6
5 “Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
1 Corinthians 4:6-8
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
Paul was reiterating what has been said in Deuteronomy and Proverbs. To go beyond what Scripture says means one is motivated by pride, the same character trait that made the Devil fall into sin.
Hate: intense dislike; extreme aversion or hostility.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:26
One more thing why only 66 books make it into the bible? What about all the others? Take just the New Testament apocrypha for instance, if ALL scriptures are god breathed as stated in the bible why didn't these get published.
No response after my last message.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)